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I have a friend who is the very happy new owner of a D36. Unfortunately, its Westerbeke 4.107 died shortly after purchase and a well-regarded diesel mech will rebuild it for 3K, but he thinks it’s been so neglected it’s not a great rebuild candidate. It has a Paragon SA1D transmission. The engine is out and in the rebuilder’s hands.
The owner is currently considering three alternatives to rebuilding the original mill.
1. A 30 HP Yanmar (maybe a 3QM30) that was rebuilt a few years ago and has been sitting in a barn ever since. It’s $2K. Unfortunately, it’s raw water cooled.
2. A Westerbeke 30 HP with a Hurth transmission that’s been rebuilt. It’s around $2.6K. He’s talked to the rebuilder and feels pretty positive about it and the mech after that discussion.
3. Another 4.107, used, with about 900 hours, with a BW Velvetdrive trans. It’s on Craig’s for 1.8K, but he hasn’t been able to reach the seller thus far.Not much to go on, I know, but are there any you’d eliminate out of hand? Other alternatives you’d suggest that he hasn’t considered? Any input would be greatly appreciated. He’s going to put a lot of love, effort, and moola into this boat and is looking forward to joining one of your annual get-togethers (she’s in Trappe now, but will be in Deltaville eventually). Looks like that’ll be 2013, though!
Thanks.
John Livingston
Newport News, VAJohn,
We have some very knowledgeable D36 AND engine members who will no doubt come up on the forum with opinions. I would like to pass on that we have two other D36’s in Deltaville–more specifically, Healy Creek. And a D41 in Queens Creek not far away. So good company and advice are near. One of those D36s has a Yanmar and it runs like a sewing machine. The other is a Westerbeke (I think)–also no problems.
As for me, I have a Yanmar 4JH in my D37 and it is sweet–more power than I need. I’m at Old Point Comfort if you would like to look at that installation. (But, of course it is very different with reverse mount and v-drive.)
Please have your friend get in touch with me, and I can provide lots of data on the DOA and upcoming events. The Rendezvous in Oxford over Fathers’ Day weekend is a MUST attend.
Thanks. He’s going to be a great addition to your group, I feel certain, and would love having contact info on those nearby. He’s just spent a second weekend scrubbing the engine room, which is now in great shape, cleaning the aft bilge, which now has a functioning pump, and has started on some of the living areas. I think he becomes more enamored of his D36 with each encounter. I’m jealous!
The latest on the engine is that he has talked with the seller of the used 4.107. It appears to be a yard sale. They had an owner who wanted to sell his boat and thought it would move faster with a new engine, so out came a (as far as anyone knows) perfectly functioning 4.107. My friend will go see it and listen to it run in a couple of weeks. Any tips you might have for what he should look for would be great. It would definitely be a lot easier putting the same engine back in.
John
Dickerson Owners’ Association members receive an annual directory that facilitates contact between owners and members.
For a little inspiration, you might want to check:
http://lothloriendickerson36ketch.weebly.com/index.html
The ongoing story of a similar restoration.
I’d give a call to the folks at Trans Atlantic Diesel to see what interesting iron they have in inventory. they usually have 4-107/8 in stock – rebuilt. They do a decent job. I bought quite a bit of “stuff” from them on my re-build a few years back….They are fairly
priced & know these engines.Any other Mfg repower will require different prop, engine beds, exhaust, wiring, fuellines & and..and and. The old 108 is pretty reliable if taken care of, and (most) parts are available and pretty reasonable.
I’d never put a raw water cooled engine in..just waiting for stuff to break in drib & drabs..unless it was free…then??? perhaps still not. Might be able to rig a pump & intercooler to close the loop on the Yanmar…might be corroded in places ya can’t see… Westerbeke 30 is a decent block. Most of The 3 cyl engines are designed to spin a bit faster than the old 4-108…sometimes noiser (or, a different noise)
A decent mechanic who thinks is key….A honest eval of used engines is often hard unless they are installed/running….gremlins show up. If the engine came out of a well maintained boat with a fastidious owner they can be a very good buy – often the owner is “modernizing”, not running from problems – worth taking a look…new paint always makes me look more carefully – what’s it hiding?
Easiest change is newer/rebuid the same as what’s in it…..but…..might be a good time to see advantage/disadvantage of 3 cyl 30 hp aux. diesels in the 37…..Most folks who re-power with newer technology like the lower weight & fuel savings..I like having the extra horsepower for pushing thru ratty weather and find my 4-107 burns a bit less than .5 gal/hr…If I was going to put 3,000 hours on the engine in the next 4 years, the fuel savings of smaller engines might interest me.
If the engine is coming out & you don’t have a pan under the engine, it’s a great time to fabricate one and install….Keeps everything in the bilge so much cleaner.
Be aware that different trannys might also spin different directions…props are expensive.
My 3 cent’s worth…
MikeThanks, Mike. I’ve fired off a note to the TAD folks (my phoning capabilities are limited at work) and we’ll see what they have to say. The owner is leaning heaving toward staying with a 4.107/8, to keep things relatively simple.
I read on one of the cruising forums, I think, that there can be issues with the wet cylinder seals on these. Is that a concern? If he bought used, is there some way to check for that and, if needed, remedy it without a major teardown?
The old engine is out and he’s thoroughly cleaned the compartment. I’ll mention the drip pan to him.
John
Hey John,
I guess wet liners might be an issue on a 4-107..eventually. There is no real reason for them to fail unless the coolant has not been changed ( or plain ole water used) and you get rust- that has negative issues on wet liner seals on diesels..( I drove Peugeot 504 diesels for years – wet liners) ..or the engine has been overheated…diesels hate to overheat . Wet liner diesels REALLY hate to overheat…..heads warp, seals are quickly compromized…all sorts of bad stuff…That said.. in normal use they last a long, long time. Have the mechanic pull the valve cover & look for heavy sludge/opaque foamy/ greasy stuff – indicative of overheating…head issues..Oil sludge…Lousy oil change intervals . Also check coolant for oil ( seals again) and oil for water (seals again). Do a compression test if you can. Pressure test the coolant system…Sometimes that shows issues…Lots of times no one wants to compression test these engines – the newer diesels test compression thru glow plug adapters – these need to test thu injector seats – more work & specialized tools.
At least get some fuel to the injector pump & turn the engine over & crack lines to each injector to insure the pump is working. Other than that, it’s kind of a crap shoot & trusting the appearance of the engine & the story…
You can get these running sitting on a wood pallet in about an hour or so….hook up fuel (rubber hose into container of fuel) …hook up a 6 foot length of hose off the exhaust, feed a bucket with a hose and feed the intercooler from the bucket – manually move the injection pump lever & put power to the starter – “Rumble, Rumble”…..I did this with mine in the garage after I rebuilt it. Ran it for 1/2 hour. worth the effort before you drop it in the boat “with fingers crossed”.
MikeI did hear back from Trans Atlantic and they want about $8K for a rebuilt 4.107. Their “total package” came to a (for me) heart-stopping $9.5K, and that’s if you’re core’s rebuildable. $11K if not. A used mill’s looking better all the time!
The yard that’s selling the used unit is intending to have it ready to run there in the shop, so that’ll be a help.
I’m feeling reassuring about the wet liner seals. It just seems that 30 years is asking a lot of any seal, but then I’ve got a 44 year old Mercedes (non-diesel) and its seals are still holding up pretty well. At least I keep telling myself that.
Not to get too far into the automotive, but my sister had a Peugeot 403 when I was in high school back around 1966-67. I borrowed it for a big date (my Bug was in the shop) and, at the end of said date ran it off a darkened country road that suddenly turned right. The Peugeot went down into a deep ditch, back up and out, through a rutted field of brambles and finally back on the road without my even downshifting. I learned that night the value of impressive suspension travel! This was back when Peugeot used to clean up in those rallies across the African bush.
Ouch…a lot of $ for an old design..
Peugeot…never caught on here in the usa….My family owned a bunch of them. 404..504..505… Diesel & gas.
I always liked it when folks drove the 404 at night and turned the “left directional” – the headlights would turn off & they would flip out!! ; the french had the directional control & horn on a little stalk on the Right side of the steering wheel…I always told my friends that “really weird” controls were in Citroens ..Ahhh fun is!!I still want a Traction Avant. Nothing like a French gangstermobile. And those door handles are to die for!
Speaking of oddball dream cars, my wife and I were looking at 60’s MB SLs when we lived in Germany in the early 80’s. Went to the Netherlands to see one (passed on it as it’d had a green metallic respray over the original burgundy). The architect owner took us to his super secret storage area where he had an old Gestapo staff car hidden. The strangest thing was, while sitting on his patio discussing cars in general and what he thought was my sloppy shifting technique specifically, his wife blurted out that her dream wheels would be an AMC Pacer! It was hard keeping the Riesling down after hearing that.
Back to boating. My D36 pal has lined up a diesel mechanic to go look at the used 4.107 with him next week. I’ll report back on how that goes soonest. He was considering (after all the degreasing of the engine room and bilge) going with electric power, until he talked with the owner of one of those companies. Total cost there would’ve been pushing 10K, too, and he wouldn’t have been looking at anything like 40HP.
John
Engine update: My pal has bought the used 4.107. He’s listened to it run and gets a good vibe both from it and the sellers, who are diesel professionals. The engine should go into his D36 next week. As he nears its installation and operation, a couple more questions have arisen.
1. The shop is changing the engine’s oil and oil filter before it’s put in. What other filters/belts/etc. should he change? Can you get a minor repair/tune-up kit, like I can for my Yanmar? I think he’s got a primary fuel filter hanging on the engine compartment’s wall. He’ll attend to that. Where would you source the Westerbeke bits? Go2marine lists a fair number of Perkins filters http://www.go2marine.com/category/17155/perkins-diesel-engine-parts.html?mfrno=645
2. He’s not sure what to do with the existing fuel in the tank. Assuming it’s roughly half-full of fairly old fuel, would you have it replaced with new fuel, perhaps adding a biocide, or have the existing fuel polished and then top off the tank? I don’t know the condition of the tank currently.Getting close to having her back on the Bay!
John
Perkins and westerbeke might not be 100% interchangeable on filters…not too sure. I buy the “on engine” filter from the local westerbeke distributor (hanson marine)..I suspect a call to TAD diesel will result in a good fitment of correct filters at a decent price. I run a racor 500 & a bigger “pre-filter” made for big “CAT” Diesels as a water separator/gunk filter. All this was put in after I had water in the fuel & had the injection pump go bad a few years ago…Fuel filters..the only thing between you & $5,000 worth of injection system repairs….My system is probably overkill…but….
I assume the “main fuel filter” mounted on the “wall” is a racor. easy to get…i think 15 micron is what was spec’d for this engine.
I had HUGE old fuel issues when we bought Iris after sitting in a yard in Maryland……old diesel is a bucket of trouble waiting to bite you. I finally ended up actually removing the tank and cleaning it to get all the junk out…(it takes about 2 1/2 hours to get the tank out – much less to go back in.) Do yourself a huge favor & drain the old fuel all out – not worth the hassle for 15 gallons of fuel. Throw in a gallon of kerosene after most of the fuel is out & drain that out too….helps to get the “junk” out….kerosene will not hurt the engine at all…
These old diesels ran the old “high sulpher fuel” made in days gone past…I add a lubricity enhancer (to replace the sulpher removed from the new diesel fuel) as an additive. A decent auto parts store has a bunch to choose from….a couple ounces/tank. I’ve been told it’s good for the injection pumps & injectors…I look at it as cheap insurance. I don’t use Biocide…
My d-36 has a round tank (looks like a 30 gallon drum) sitting under the stbd seats in a plywood cradle held in place by plastic covered wire on turnbuckles..neat arrangement I assume is standard to Dickerson. The tank is Monel- monel is great – I assume yours is the same…Monel lasts a long, long time. I don’t worry about the tank..(now it will cause trouble, just for spite
.Hope this helps….
MikeThe used 4.107 is now in the boat. The yard says the transmission is shorter and two of the engine mounts don’t match up. There’s also some issues with getting the exhaust to connect. I’ll let you know as these get resolved. We were hoping to move her from Trappe to Deal Island on the 16th, but that may be optimistic.
John
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